Can we amuse our democracy back to life? Can we incentivize empathy and compromise, instead of viciousness and dysfunction? These are the driving questions behind the TV series, “Breaking Bread with Alexander.”
Host Alexander Heffner invites governors and U.S. senators to dinner to talk about policy, democracy and their backgrounds – and he recently dined with Wyoming Gov. Mark Gordon at the Historic Occidental Hotel in Buffalo.
“All things in moderation. That could have been a title for this episode with Gov. Gordon,” said host Alexander Heffner. “All things in moderation, because the plate had potatoes, asparagus or broccoli, and then we had strawberries in the pie. Very well-rounded meal.”
Wyoming Public Radio’s Nicky Ouellet recently caught up with Heffner to hear about the series and how Gordon stands out.
Editor’s Note: This interview was edited for clarity and brevity.
Nicky Ouellet: Alexander, can you tell me a bit about this series, “Breaking Bread with Alexander?” Why are you profiling governors and senators in this particular way, and what are you hoping to learn?
Alexander Heffner: I've always thought of politics as not just the art of the possible but the reality of the survivable and the pursuit of perfecting our union. That's highfalutin, but when it comes down to brass tacks, the fact is politics determines our well-being, our livelihood. That's the spirit I brought to the conversations, with food and sustenance as the entry point that I think can incentivize a better way forward.
NO: In the episode you mentioned that Gordon ate his full plate and that that seems like a detail that really stuck out to you. What did that tell you about him?
AH: It told me that breaking bread was not an abstract concept that was just imagined by me to him and that somewhere along the line, his grandmother, or another family member, might have said, “Finish your plate,” and equate finishing your plate with a respect for not only the chef and the family or the people with whom you're dining, but yourself and the dialogue in which you're engaged. It said to me that this is someone who understands the biblical and political idea of breaking bread.
NO: I want to tuck in to some of the topics that you guys covered in your conversation. It was pretty far-reaching. You talked about cowboy culture, American energy renewal, the threat of white supremacy, [and] overpopulation of grizzly bears. Also, what Gordon calls the radical center, economics, electoral politics, [and] his work in the private sector. Among that whole list, what really stood out to you?
AH: Well, you named some of the highlights. I think that on a personal level, his relationship with his dad. I felt that the public ought to learn and would relate to an intergenerational difference of opinion about how to run your farm or ranch.
Mark Gordon: I just grew up knowing I was supposed to do ranching and I was supposed to help my folks. So breaking away from that was really hard to do. And in time he [Mark’s dad] grew very respectful of what we’d done, but I grew so much more respectful.
AH: I think also his unabashed acknowledgment of extremism and the fact that hate groups do exist and there's still a threat to the well-being of all Americans.
MG: I think white supremacy is very much on the rise and I'm very concerned about it. I don’t condone violence against our country. I think it’s a very great homeland security threat.
AH: That was a meaningful statement in a state when a significant constituency of voters would disagree with him and not view white supremacy, bigotry, political violence as the threat that he identified. Those were a few areas that would make a viewer of this really think about representing the full body of America. We've got caught up in the blue and red state conundrum, and all of our conversations revolve around unpacking gridlock and the idea of homogeneous, even authoritarian blue or red control in a given state.
One of the purposes of this series is to counter that narrative, which I think is fundamentally wrong. Every state in our union is purple. It's a medley of red and blue. It’s shocking to me that we've accepted this as a citizenry, when we know better. We know that this is often a tool deployed to exploit division and disharmony for the gain of extremes. I think we just forget that and “Breaking Bread” is also designed to remind people of that.
NO: Yeah, breaking this idea that voters are monoliths.
AH: Right, breaking that idea. If we thought of something as a red state, it would really mean that the glass was entirely full of one way of thinking about something. Likewise, if it was a blue state. None of these states, really, is blue or red. That's my basic proposition, that if you have a Republican supermajority legislature and Republican governor, that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a diversity or pluralism of thought.
NO: I'm curious about the similarities and differences among the governors and senators that you’ve spoken to and kind of where Gordon fits into that mix. Where does he zig where you see others zagging and where does he align in priorities, both policy but also just kind of how we govern ourselves?
AH: He was the only one who zigged in finishing his plate. He was also the one who zigged in authoring a handwritten thank you letter.
NO: Oh, wow.
AH: That's something that once again emphasized an understanding of the way discourse used to be and is not in great preponderance now. It's just not practiced this way. For me those are constitutional level zigs. I think that another difference with Gov. Gordon, like Gov. [Jared] Polis of Colorado, Gov. [Spencer] Cox of Utah and most recently Gov. [Michelle] Lujan Grisham – not surprising all four are in “Breaking Bread,” either Season 1 or Season 2. They have been the most visible ambassadors of the National Governors Association “Disagree Better” campaign, and I applaud them. But it's not enough.
Disagreeing better doesn't save a union or sustain a republic. I think they all know that and they're trying to take baby steps, whatever is possible in a climate that incentivizes the division. Even within this series of conversations, it wasn't always as visible that each one of these governors and senators wants to change, wants to reverse, the viciousness in our politics right now, and it was visible with him.
NO: Alexander, this has been fascinating. Tell me, where can we find your series, “Breaking Bread with Alexander?”
AH: You can find it on Bloomberg Originals or “The Open Mind” on PBS. You can stream it digitally.
